Oct 29 Dennis Jones – Street Fighting and Sport

This interview was conducted in June 2004

Steve Rowe talks to Shi Kon martial artist and doorman Dennis Jones.

SR In last month’s issue of MAI we discussed the question ‘what is street fighting?’ Like all martial artists you’re fascinated by what is considered to be one of the holy grails of martial arts…

DJ I’ve always been fascinated, … ever since I was about 14 when I’d go out at the weekend and watch from a safe distance, the hassle and fights as the pubs chucked out.

SR Yeah we’ve all seen the idiots running about, causing trouble but you seem to have made an art out of stopping them…and you’re still doing it after all these years!

DJ I reckon by now I’m in hundreds of photographs and miles of CCTV footage, you know, like the strange bloke that everyone has in their wedding album, ‘who’s that fellow’ and no one knows! (Laugh)….

SR In martial arts there’s two schools of thought.  The first are those who don’t want anything to do with street fighting – trusting what they do as being more than good enough.  The other school spends all their time thinking and training for the street.

DJ Yeah… it’s ‘difficult’ for most people (today) to get experience of street fighting.  If you do a sport the best you can expect is that you become very good at it.  Martial artists spend all their time arguing about the effectiveness of their art out on the street.  But how do they know?

SR Street fighting certainly isn’t a sport.  Dennis what do you think about all the ‘street hype’ in martial arts?

DJ Look at it this way.  Most people would laugh if a top badminton player said badminton was a brilliant method of self-defence.

SR That’s an odd statement, but I think I get your drift…..

DJ He can say what he likes, but if he hits me with his racket,… now that’s a different matter (laugh).  People say a lot of things but you cannot depend on theory alone, it’s no good developing techniques that have no substance in real life.  You’ve got to know what people do when they’re instinctively fighting when high on adrenaline and fear.  So all the hype has as much meaning as a badminton player shooting his mouth off.  Good for business but it’s liable to let you down when it really counts…

SR There is a massive difference between any combat sport and street fighting, being able to deal with experienced thugs and their weapons  is a world of it’s own…

DJ It’s funny you mention weapons, do you remember in last months article I told you about a close friend of mine who said ‘…whatever was necessary to win, even if it meant using a weapon!’ you know Steve perhaps some of our readers were shocked with what he said.  Yet over 50 years ago EJ Harrison, who must have been in his early seventies, wrote ‘The Manual Of Judo’.  In chapter 10 ‘Atemiwaza’ or ‘The Art Of Attacking Vital Spots’ he wrote ‘…Occasionally when the need is great and ones life is in danger one must use whatever comes to hand in striking at the vital spots: with a glass, stick, burning brand, boiling water, etc., the most important point here being to strike only at the vital spots.’ The book was published about 1952.

SR Nothing new eh?… In our discussion one theme keeps cropping up – ‘the mind’, and you talk about it a lot!

DJ It’s so important.  We know that in the traditional martial arts great emphasis is placed on the spiritual aspects.  In sport there’s no need for that sort of thing…  let me tell you a story…..

When I first became a karate instructor, I was young.  Everyone around me was telling me that I was invincible and I believed it!  I was god in my own dojo because everyone knew how to attack me to make my techniques work and look good!  When I started work at a very rough nightclub, I had no gi and belt on and no one knew who I was…  it was a different story!  I watched people getting seriously hurt and realised that I had to radically change my thinking!  The first thing that had to go was my ego – so I dropped it.  I just couldn’t tempt fate.  I could be hurt like the next person and therefore couldn’t afford to fight to protect my ego – only to survive!  Many martial artists do a bit on the door, but often not enough to have to confront a real fighter or be in a really dangerous situation.  They get very cocky until they are unlucky enough to meet someone that can REALLY do the business.  Then they learn that all that Dojo talk and ego boosting is worth nothing.

You might be the best athlete and believe you are one of the best martial artists around, but out in the street, in a pub or club it’s not worth zilch if some idiot gets the drop on you and takes you by surprise.  You have to remember that it’s his environment and you’ve got to learn to make it yours by learning his tactics.

SR Are you going to finish with a story?

DJ Okay…  in around ’95, a Karate Dan grade, aged about 22 who used to come to the nightclub, was really sure of himself, I was just a ticket collector come doorman to him.  They say the arrogance of an amateur is the envy of a professional…. He had it all.  I remember looking at him and thinking of all the years of training and experience I had, but there is no way I could feel as confident as him… He knew I’d done a bit of karate and came over to talk to me, well talk at me would be more accurate, I let him waffle on and tell me how good he was and just let it go over my head.  It didn’t matter to me what he thought.

A couple of weeks went by and he came over to talk to me again.  I said “let me give you a bit of advice, I know you look at me and just see an old man on the door, but you’ve got to be very careful, because all of your training will go out of the window in a real fight.  You will be overwhelmed really quickly, by possibly two or more people and you won’t even know what’s happened to you.  It’ll be more traumatic than you can possible think of, because I know how you train and I know that you’re not ready for the overwhelming violence that will be used against you.  It’ll be so quick that you’ll be on the floor staggered by what’s happened to you”.  He said “nah, I’ll be able to deal with them”. 

Guess what….  That very night he was up by the bar and one guy unleashed a flurry of blows on him smashing him to the floor and another guy put the boot in.  It was over in a couple of seconds.  The bouncers went in and took the attackers out.  The last time I saw him he was being helped out the door in a headlock by one of the bouncers with blood streaming out of a broken nose. 

If you train properly and develop the right kind of awareness you can prepare yourself and stay out of trouble, even if it means weapon for weapon, let me tell you another story…..

22 years ago I was working at a nightclub.  At the end of the evening an older guy was outside wielding a long mechanical spanner.  A man and woman came running in, he’d hit them in the face with it, and they were both badly injured.  He was outside just hitting people in the car park and literally hundreds of people just leaving the club ran away from him!  I went out and walked towards him and he saw me and started to walk towards me.  I think I could have handled him unarmed and him with the spanner, but I thought I’d even the odds a little and got the weapon that I had out and put it on my hand…  it glinted in the streetlight and his eyes literally widened – he didn’t like that – and turned and ran.  I didn’t have to fight because I’d evened the odds – he didn’t fancy what the English and Americans call “mutually assured destruction!”  He didn’t get hurt nor did I.  The situation was resolved without any violence. 

Remember none of us are invincible… don’t think about defeating your opponent; ignore the dreams of victory and adoration!  Just think about what you intend to do and learn to know what your opponent will do, because like you it will all be fear, anger and instinct.

SR… In the past, people knew the difference between ‘no rules’ fighting and sport.  When faced with a choice, they chose to settle their differences with a higher principled, sporting way of fighting, ‘no rules’ was reserved for war, or life and death situations.  Now…. There is only ‘no rules’…..

DJ Sad….. but true.

Steve Rowe

Steve Rowe is a highly successful Martial Arts instructor - an International Neigong, Qigong and Tai Chi Teacher and an 8th Dan Karate with many other senior dan grades in other martial disciplines.

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