Oct 30 Dennis Jones – What Makes People Want To Fight?

This interview was conducted in July 2004

STEVE ROWE TALKS TO DOORMAN AND SHI KON MARTIAL ARTIST DENNIS JONES

SR  Carrying on our conversation of the last few months, we’ve talked about what street fighting is and it’s history, but what mystifies most civilised people, is what makes people WANT to fight in the first place?

DJ  Without a doubt, the common driving force is anger.  When anger wells up inside of people, they develop hate and have to take it out on someone.  It overwhelms them, it makes them behave like animals, and they become bereft of all traces of civilised human behaviour.

SR  This “sudden violence” when it erupts is what terrifies civilised people so much…

DJ  That’s right and these people are very dangerous.  Anger spirals and overwhelms quickly, some people though, have a cold anger and are more aware of what’s going on and are determined to commit acts of violence, perhaps over days, weeks and even years fuelled by their own hate.

SR  Do you think that like a child, when some people are frustrated and angry at the rest of the world, they vent their anger by bullying and dominating other people?

DJ  Yes some people really get off on that, they enjoy it, it’s the power they get from being a bully.

SR  The problem seems to be that most normal people don’t understand violence and have absolutely no wish to hurt another person, they are having a pleasant night out or walking down the road or driving their car and this “sudden violence” just erupts in their face.  When taken by surprise in that way they can’t prepare themselves and have quite possibly never met that level of violence in their entire life…

DJ  These violent people are not “compus mentus” it might be drugs, drink or a personality defect, what triggers the violence is usually their relationship to women or their lust for power.  Common phrases you hear on the doors are “he didn’t respect me” “he diss’d me” “he showed me no respect” or “he’s chatting up my woman and she’s my property!”. But most times though, nothing is said: ‘It’s just pure hate’.

SR  So normal people have to be mentally prepared to meet with these idiots.  The worrying factor for me is that some martial arts instructors are the idiots, who “get off” by terrorising and dominating others and other people; are paranoid about them and teach that you have to become like them to defeat them.  Do you think that this is true?

DJ   This is why many warriors and martial artists in the past turned to experts of the mind.  The Buddha was a great meditation master and taught that suffering was borne out of desire.  He saw that to grasp on to and hold these feelings was akin to trying to hold fire.  This “burning” is what you see in the faces of violent people.

SR  I would say that most students coming into a martial arts dojo have either experienced this “sudden violence”, have been terrified by it  and want to learn to deal with it, or realise that they are likely to meet it and want to be prepared.  Martial arts magazines and the internet are littered with the sales spiel of these “certificate warriors” who don’t have any real depth of experience and market self defence techniques that are clearly unworkable.  They then go around validating each other until no one knows what’s real.  I feel that it’s important that someone who has the experience, but is not one of the bullies, can have valuable input, someone like yourself who personifies the word “gentleman” and “martial artist” with a developed sense of justice, good manners and honour.  You don’t have to become and idiot to deal with one.  What advice can you offer to this group of people?

DJ  You’re right, this does form the majority of people that want to learn the martial arts.  I’ve been in the martial arts for over 30 years and have seen far too many Instructors dominating their students and living in a fantasy world where they rule.  Any technique they teach will work against compliant, frightened students. When I started Karate, it was full of egotistical bullies. I suppose it was the hierarchy of a typical Japanese structure designed to keep you in your place. I think the structure was an attempt to create and maintain standards and business and worked at that time. Mind you, looking around at all the martial arts clubs we have today, how does anyone know whether a club is good or bad?

What we need is reality in training and not theory or dreams and we certainly shouldn’t terrorise our students. Bullying under the pretence of instilling fighting spirit is playing mind games and making students compliant and subservient to your will.

This is why it’s important to develop the right instructor /student relationship that takes the individual student through realistic scenarios and show through direct experience how people react and how a technique actually works.  

I would estimate that most of the readers of this magazine were bullied at school. When their fathers told them to go and “smack the bully on the nose”, it was the hardest thing in the world for them to do and I’d bet most couldn’t do it.

Years ago whilst working on the doors I knew this worthless piece of garbage who was a real bully, the guy that he was bullying by all intents and purposes should have been a good match for him, the problem was that he was defeated mentally before any fighting started.  I offered to train the guy who was being bullied for 3 months, he did this, working really hard physically and then I arranged for him to have a “straightner” (fight) with his bully, with me refereeing at the nightclub outside the fire escape. 

When they squared off the guy that I’d trained was so terrified, that I actually saw the whites of his eyes and he backed down and out of the fight.  Forget the training….  His mind had let him down!  I would have been better working on his mind than his body.  He would have actually have been better off to have gone to a Buddhist monastery and meditated about life, death and the universe than working on the physical techniques.  I learned a lot from that experience! Mind you Steve the bully got it later, he tried his old tricks on my friend Fred who then promptly ‘punched his lights out’ breaking his cheek bone in the process!

SR  There’s a wonderful story about the Japanese calligrapher that upset and was challenged by a Samurai swordsman, he went to the zen master for advice and was told that he had to accept the challenge and should prepare his mind as he did in zen calligraphy so that he could accept his inevitable demise with equanimity ….

On the day of the challenge, he held his sword down by his side and prepared himself to die.  What he didn’t know was that master swordsmen sometimes used “mu kamae” (no stance) and stood in the same way with sword held at their side and a pure zen mind.  The Samurai’s eyes widened when he saw this and he sheathed his sword with profound apologies and left…

DJ  The problem is that cocaine is a kind of “get brave” pill. The first time that I heard this was from my father when he fought in Korea, the Mongolians and the Chinese would be on the opium all night and then run at the British guns the following day.  They would often run a further 10 steps after being hit with a 303 round through the chest and just keep coming!  I heard these stories as a child and have seen the effects that drugs have had on people whilst working on the doors…

Many so called street fighters can’t actually fight in a way that martial artists would recognise. These street fighters have just learnt to ENDURE.  Many martial artists often get a false adulation from their students and those around them because they know so called “killer techniques” that look good and appear to work. In reality, fighting is dirty, scrappy and confusing….don’t expect anything better. You won’t look like Van Damme…  you may just get one window of opportunity to deliver a good solid blow to your opponent and your skill is whether you have the mindset and ability to do it when it really counts. 

SR  In conclusion, the reason that the martial arts traditionally work so well is that the originators realised that you don’t have to become like a mindless thug to defeat one.  They trained their morals and mind in a zen like manner to be able to deal with life or death situations and appreciated that training the mind and spirit came before technique. I know you practice Wu style Tai Chi but how does ‘softness’ help you.

DJ  Yes, there’s a lot to softness and one of the benefits is that Tai Chi is moving Zen, a state of mind that is needed in a real fight. Sport martial arts require incredible, but radically different skills to what is required out in the street. Bobbing around, jumping in and out etc. is what you need for sport. In the street where people are really angry all they want to do is ‘batter you’ to a pulp. It’s very different from sport.

Being fit and knowing how to kick and punch are very important, but the key skills are body position, a stable mind and no excessive tension. You have to find the circles in movement and I’ve found theYang Tai Chi that’s practiced at the Shi Kon dojo has all the principle elements of a street fight wrapped up in the form.

SR There’s another good controversial article there Dennis, so we’ll talk about that next month.  Thank you.

DJ  Thank you Steve.

Steve Rowe

Steve Rowe is a highly successful Martial Arts instructor - an International Neigong, Qigong and Tai Chi Teacher and an 8th Dan Karate with many other senior dan grades in other martial disciplines.

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