Jan 01 Dennis Jones – Violence in the Medway Towns

This interview was published in November 2006

SR Hi Dennis and Jonathan, it’s nice to have you both here for a coffee at the same time, it’s not often that we all meet up together like this.

SR It’s a good opportunity to discuss a question that recently cropped up on our forum that one of my students had posted.  He asked, and I’ll read it to you both:

” I know that violence is pretty much the same all over the place.  But how do you think it has changed over the years in the Medway towns?  I don’t know whether the Royal Navy was still in town when you started working the doors.  But I’ve heard lots of stories about various battles between the Navy, Army and the Local’s.  You’ve no doubt seen a lot of people come and go in your time, has the violence changed a great deal?  What I mean is, did people stand ‘toe to toe’ to sort their problems out or did they use weapons as much as people seem to nowadays?  I hear a lot of stories from the lads I know but sometimes their stories seem a bit far fetched so it’s nice to hear from the ‘other side’.”

DJ A good question and yes the Navy, Army and NATO servicemen, sometimes in large numbers were all here when I first started bouncing!

JJ  Not forgetting of course the Royal Marines.   On one level, life was a lot harder and probably much tougher for them, so I guess nights out were an excuse to let off steam.

DJ I think working life generally in the 70’s was a lot harder.

JJ I agree and at the time it seemed people were always fighting and getting hurt quite badly.  Having said that though, today people will say it’s more violent now than it was then!  

SR That seems a bit contradictory….

JJ To answer that Steve, perhaps I can refer to what I said earlier on the Shi Kon forum:  “My brother Dennis and I worked together at some of the same clubs for nearly ten years (1990′s to 2000) in the Medway Towns.  At first the fights were horrendous and as a doorman I became adept at treating the wounded many of who sported some very serious injuries.  In the early years I dealt with broken limbs, stab wounds, fractured upper limbs and facial bones, broken teeth (not just one but usually a whole upper jaw’s worth), glassing injuries, concussions, and even a punctured lung, and two cardiac arrests (one was shock which caused an asthmatic attack and subsequent cardiac difficulty).”

DJ My friends who worked as bouncers in other rough areas said it was the same for them, the older days were rougher.

JJ Over that brief time I witnessed a significant change in the level of violence, it became less serious and less frequent.  Now that could have been because as doormen we were relatively effective or that there were simply fewer aggressive people.  I don’t know which of those applies but can say that generally the incidence of violence declined over that period.  Importantly, I did not work at just one club, although I can say that I and indeed Dennis spent many years at one particular place.  The point is I don’t think it was just doormen that caused violent incidents to decrease because the decline was also evidenced in other clubs.

After the Navy left Medway, it became more peaceful and that’s because their departure meant that there was one less faction waiting to get involved.  However, we still had the Army, travelers, and locals, all of whom continued to lay into each other at any given opportunity.

Now in the 60′s and particularly the 1970′s and early 1980′s, the Medway Towns turned into a battleground from 4.30pm onwards every evening and more so on a weekend.  As a boy I witnessed some horrendous fights in the middle of Chatham and to be frank have not witnessed the like since, that is people literally coming through the windows of pubs, glass ashtrays being used as a ‘tool’, razors on the end of DM’s and then used against peoples faces when they were down, flick knives, cut throat razors, bar stools, and the usual beer glasses.

DJ In the early days it seemed as if everyone was shoving beer mugs into one another’s faces!  Then there were those who wore steel clips on the tips and heels of their ‘dealer boots’!

JJ Dennis, I remember you starting work at Scamps nightclub for fifteen pounds a night before tax!  You needed the money to eat – I remember that – the good old days…I’d forgotten about the Dealer Boots; those heels were vicious when worked into the face, they could really mess up someone’s night.  The horrifying thing about all this was that it was a common occurrence, almost every night in fact.  I remember nights at the local club when as a customer I would be dancing and drinking whilst around me all hell had let loose.  I can actually recall having to literally step over people fighting; although in those days it just probably appeared as though I was doing some funky dance moves!

The reality was that even then it was seldom that people would go toe-to-toe. Violence just seemed to be spontaneous and without cause.  No squaring up to each other, just a complete and utter explosive orgy of violence that typically involved many people.  More often such violence would be absolutely irrational and could frequently render the innocent bystander a victim to the rampage – they were just in the way!

In support of my view you can examine the local assize records for that period and they show an extremely violent and disordered community.  Those records reveal just how serious a problem there was in the Medway Towns and often state the sort of weapons that were involved.  In any event I’m pleased to say that from what I have seen; Medway has become generally less violent.

On the other hand however, aggression, disrespect and bad manners have increased to a disproportionate level. I suppose that people are more likely to be ‘gobby’ than extremely violent.  But if you’re by yourself and out numbered you better be on your guard.

DJ…And be fit…

JJ Yep, you might have to do a runner – or have a good knock-out punch, because I reckon you’re gonna need it! 

DJ Referring to what you said about doorman being relatively effective or not, it’s my experience that most people do, at the last moment, refrain from killing (someone) when they have a fight.  On a Friday or Saturday night it’s usually the case, with everybody shouting and especially women screaming ‘leave him alone, you’re killing him!’ that in the end the violence stops.  So, often there is some sort of ‘social control’.

JJ I agree, but as you know there are times when it goes the other way and the social control turns into a mass brawl.

DJ We’ve been in a few of them (laughs) and I ain’t that good at first aid-didn’t have the training that you had Jon.  But to be honest if my colleagues and I didn’t get involved in the trouble we could’ve witnessed countless fatalities.  And adding to what you said; being in East Grinstead Hospital having your face repaired and jaw fixed is a lot better than dying, so in that respect we were often successful!  Outside licensed premises there will always be trouble, especially at closing time – and when there is, you’ll often see doorman trying to calm things down.  You’ll usually see friends of the guys that are having a problem also getting involved.  This is what keeps the murder rate down on our streets, people getting involved and the police.

JJ…And we mustn’t forget how effective medical treatment is nowadays.  Do you remember when someone was left for dead (multiple stab wounds) outside the club…?

DJ There’s been quite a few but I remember the one you’re talking about.  I did my bit of first aid; he wasn’t breathing and then there was a lot of blood.  He nearly died, but its all credit to the Ambulance Service and the Medical Profession that he didn’t.  Perhaps 30 years ago he would have.

DJ A lot has changed over the last 14 years but a lot more has changed since the late 70s and early 80s.  In a strange way, for bouncers and men who liked a bit of a ‘ruck’ it was more violent back then than it is today.

SR ‘For bouncers and men who liked a bit of a ‘ruck’?  How is that the case?

DJ Well Steve during the early 80s it would often happen, when we turned away a group of blokes, a moment later we would all end up fighting.  As always there’d be the normal banter and then it would turn nasty just before it got into the fighting…the verbal was always a test of courage for a doorman.

JJ Yeah and there was always one fella in the group who would be the ‘mouth’ and was I suppose because he was probably the loudest, bravest or simply the biggest bully of the group.  He may be a nasty piece of work, and so when with the group he would have no alternative but to put himself up as the ‘main man’ otherwise he would lose his place in their pecking order and that would be a problem for him.  So he had no choice but to try and impress the others by whatever way he could – and it usually started with his little moments of body language.  You remember Dennis I’m sure, when the guy would start staring at the bouncers until he found what he thought to be a weak one and that’s where he would start the psychology.  Saying things like “what the **** up with your muppet mate?” or “so who says I ain’t coming in – not that streak of **** – I’m telling you that much”.  And from that he would start to measure off the doormen by isolating who he thought to be weak, and in some cases it worked. 

Remember the guy who terrified three of the doormen in one club we worked in, and I was the only one who questioned whether he should be allowed in.  The other three doormen vouched for him and as a result, he had to be carried out within 45 minutes of being let in.  But that just resulted with him ramming through the club doors with an old nicked MkIV Cortina, with all his mates trying to follow behind it.  Dennis, it was you and me and 6 others at the top of the stairs with a barricaded door between 30 or so of them.  I remember standing next to you, and the others ‘behind us’, (cheers fellas), and saying “if they get through this door try and hold it open just enough that I can spray ‘em in the face with the C02”.  Fortunately, by the time we made the decision to spring the doors and rush them they lost it and ran out the club – but what a rotten night.  I’m pleased to say however, that I never worked with those three doormen again.

Guess that’s when I learnt the true value of saying no at the door because it’s better to have the row at the front of the club than to have to do it inside and then carry them out.  All that ‘carrying people out’ is for the young and impetuous doorman – it’s not for the older ones eh Dennis?  

DJ Or even get carried out yourself if you get it wrong.  Say no at the door every single time…Anyway I was young and impetuous once!  But that night was certainly a night for some of those DIY tools…would’ve been useful repairing the foyer that they wrecked!  I must say even though I would get nervous I was always ok about stopping thugs from coming in, I was prepared to ‘accommodate’ them if that’s what they wanted.  But I guess looking back I should have just ignored the question ‘who’s gonna stop me?’  Nowadays though, most people just get mouthy, they always seem to take a couple of steps back, just out of your reach, and then they use verbal abuse like shouting…

SR We’ll just miss that out; it is a family magazine (laughs)

We’ll make a ‘natural break’ there and finish this for next month’s issue.

DJ & JJ Look forward to it Steve!

Steve Rowe

Steve Rowe is a highly successful Martial Arts instructor - an International Neigong, Qigong and Tai Chi Teacher and an 8th Dan Karate with many other senior dan grades in other martial disciplines.

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